WEEKLY WHINE

Interaction: The island question

Myers: Good evening, and welcome once again to Interaction, the programme that gives you the opportunity to listen to your fellow people talk about things - sometimes even the things you want them to talk about. This week we're here to discuss the recent conflict between Spain and Morocco over a small Mediterranean island, called Perejil in Spain and Leila in Morocco. Though it's less than a kilometre from one end to the other, it's now at the core of the rocky relations between the two countries. Only today, the Secretary of State of the United States, Colin Powell, arranged a peace treaty over the island. Where does that leave the nations' mutual trust: toward one side, toward the other, or on its way to hell in a handbasket? Joining us today to discuss this topic is, first, Sr Alfredo Gaspardo, the Undersecretary for Obscure Places at the Spanish Foreign Ministry, in Madrid.

Gaspardo: Hello there.

Myers: In Rabat, Ms Mediga Bousajiama, the Moroccan Foreign Ministry's Director of Treaty Writing.

Bousajiama: Good evening.

Myers: On a boat en route to the island itself, a Moroccan goat herder, Mr Anremme Vina.

Vina: [goat nudging his foot] Hi.

Myers: And here with me in our Warwickshire studios is Ms Vera Ti, a graduate student in history at the University of Surrey in the UK.

Ti: Good evening Debbie.

Myers: Thank you all for joining us this evening. Let's go over to you first, Alfredo, and get the Spanish perspective on what's happened this past week and a half.

Gaspardo: Well Debbie, there had been a nice and useful truce going until our Moroccan friends decided to ruin everything by storming the island on THU 11 JUL 2002. The island of Perejil has quite rightly been Spanish territory since the fifteenth century, and our decision not to staff it with troops is not an open invitation to dominate it.

Myers: Some harsh feelings there. Mediga, what is your position on the island?

Bousajiama: The island of Leila is Moroccan, plain and simple. It lies only two hundred metres from the Moroccan shore, and the fact that Spain continues to claim its neighbouring cities Ceuta and Melilla does not strengthen their case - rather, it contradicts their claims, as Ceuta and Melilla are constructed on proper Moroccan territory. If Spain think they can continue pushing us Moroccans around, they've got another thing coming.

Myers: That's certainly something to think about. Anremme, what is your opinion?

Vina: [goat tugging at the laces of his boot] Everyone's blowing this whole thing out of proportion. It's just a little stone off the coast. A bit over a week ago, a few Moroccan soldiers went over to Leila and put the flag up, right up there. [points] About a week after that, some helicopters were buzzing round the island, and one of them brought some troops to put up the Spanish flag. I mean, it really should be Moroccan, but my goats don't care much whether there's a flag there or what colour it is, just as long as they can get there and eat their parsley.

Myers: Another important point there. Vera, you've made a special study of Spanish-Moroccan relations. What strikes you about all this?

Ti: As Mediga mentioned a moment ago, this isn't really about one island. It's about overall relations between Spain and Morocco. Morocco always have the feeling that Spain are mean and nasty, whereas the Spanish are of the opinion that all this wouldn't happen if Morocco didn't keep trying to provoke them.

Myers: Well, let's see if our panelists agree with your assessment of the situation. Anremme, do you think that Spain are indeed mean and nasty?

Vina: [goat pushing him backward] A little bit. I mean, did it really take four helicopters and a warship to grab, what, ten of our soldiers from Leila? I think it was pretty stupid of those guys to head over there and put up a Moroccan flag in the first place - in clear violation of the way things had been for so long. But it was also dumb of Spain to retaliate like that. Isn't there a bag of potatoes somewhere that they could punch or something?

Myers: Mediga, would you agree?

Bousajiama: The island of Leila is Moroccan, plain and simple. It lies only two hundred metres from the Moroccan shore, and the fact that Spain continues to claim its neighbouring cities Ceuta and Melilla does not strengthen their case - rather, it contradicts their claims, as Ceuta and Melilla are constructed on proper Moroccan territory. If Spain think they can continue pushing us Moroccans around, they've got another thing coming.

Myers: Um, I see. Alfredo, what do you think of Vera's statement that Spain blame Moroccans for being provoking?

Gaspardo: That's plain to anyone. Moroccans like to say that Ceuta and Melilla must be Moroccan because they're located next to Morocco. Big whoop. Canada is located next to the United States. What does that mean? Does the US ever invade Canada?

Myers: Well, with that, we'll have to move on to viewer questions. Keep in mind that there are several ways in which you can contact us, such as E-mail, telephone, telegraph, fax, and writing down your question, tying it to a brick, and hurling it through our office window. However, with the current state of NHS, I'd advise against that. Anyway, today we'll start with a facsimile from Eduardo Durán of Antwerp, Belgium, who asks why nobody lives on Leila. Anremme?

Vina: [goat tugging at his sleeve] It's probably because of the goats. Would you want to live somewhere where goats eat your articles of clothing one by one?

Myers: And what about you? You herd goats on Leila, but you don't live there, is that right?

Vina: [goat ripping his sleeve] Right. I live near Bel Younech, a village across from Leila. Just take a look at the place. [steps aside] You can see that there's no reason to live there. There's no utilities, no power station or sewage system, so what's the point? If there was, it would no longer be good goat herding terrain, and its reason for existence would go away.

Myers: Hmm. Well, we now have another question, and it's by telephone from Alex in Gibraltar, as it happens. Alex, are you there?

Alex in Gibraltar: Hi there!

Myers: Hello Alex. What's your question?

Alex in Gibraltar: Er, I've forgotten.

Myers: [prompting] Wasn't it about the similarities between this situation and the Gibraltar situation?

Alex in Gibraltar: I don't know.

Myers: Well, that's what you told our producer before you came on, so we're going to go with that. Alfredo, how does this relate to the Gibraltar situation?

Gaspardo: It doesn't. The Gibraltar situation is clearly defined by the Treaty of Utrecht, in which the UK acquired Gibraltar in 1713. But Spain took Ceuta, Melilla, and Perejil back in the 1400s, and no treaty was made with Morocco because there was no Morocco at the time.

Myers: What of that, Mediga? How does this relate?

Bousajiama: The island of Leila is Moroccan, plain and simple. It lies only two hundred metres from the Moroccan shore, and the fact that Spain continues to claim its neighbouring cities Ceuta and Melilla does not-

Myers: If-

Bousajiama: -strengthen their case - rather, it-

Myers: Med-

Bousajiama: -contradicts their claims, as Ceuta and Melilla are constructed on proper Moroccan-

Myers: Yes-

Bousajiama: -territory. If Spain think they can continue pushing us Moroccans around, they've got another thing coming.

Myers: Well. Vera, let's go to you instead. Where does Gibraltar fit in here?

Ti: On the Spanish coast, a little ways north of Leila.

Myers: We've just received another question over the E-mail channels, and it's from Cesare in Santiago, Chile. He asks if Anremme would be so kind as to give us a quick visual tour of the island.

Vina: [goat eating his boot] Sure. [points] That's the western side, and [points to other side] that's the eastern side.

Myers: Shouldn't you have arrived at the island by now?

Vina: [goat eating his pants] Yeah, you're right. [shouts off] Hey Eric, why haven't we gotten there yet? [goat rips his pants off]

Myers: Okay, we'd better go over to you now, Alfredo. What do you think of that tour?

Gaspardo: That's what this fuss is all about? What's the point?

Myers: Vera, perhaps you can remind us of what the point is.

Ti: If that puny little island is what they're fighting over, who cares? They should just play Scrabble or something for it.

Myers: I see. Mediga, it looks like I have no choice but to go to you. Is Morocco really prepared to make a big stink over that island?

Bousajiama: The island of Leila is Moroccan, plain and simple. It lies only two hundred metres from the Moroccan shore, and the fact that Spain continues- [sound cuts off abruptly]

Myers: So, before I'm forced to use the red button on anyone else, let me quickly thank Ms Vera Ti, Mr Anremme Vina, Ms Mediga Bousajiama, and Sr Alfredo Gaspardo for filling time on this week's programme. Next week we'll discuss what remains of the stock market, and we'll hear from traders at the New York, Nasdaq, and London stock exchanges, as well as a guy who stuffs all his money under his mattress. Until then, good night.

Gaspardo: Hey Anremme, want to play Scrabble for that island?

Vina: Bring it!