Interaction: Protests in Brazil

Kügenliche: Hello everyone, and welcome to Interaction. I’m Charlotte Kügenliche. It is Saturday, the twenty second of June 2013, and this evening we are discussing the flareups in Brazil. Well, they began small, when a rise in bus and metro fares in São Paulo took effect at the start of this month. The protests in São Paulo have been growing steadily since then and have now spread to cities right across the country, from Rio de Janeiro to Brasília, from Porto Alegre to Manaus. The protesters’ demands largely fall into the category of better governance: an end to corruption, greater transparency and accountability in government, better use of tax money to assist the poor rather than construct large stadiums for tournaments such as the Confederations Cup currently in progress. It is estimated that more than 2,000,000 people have taken to the streets in more than one hundred cities across Brazil. Will their voices be heard? Will Brazil take serious steps to reduce corruption and make better use of tax money? Or will government leaders continue to do anything Sepp Blatter tells them to do? Our panel this evening will help us determine the answers to these questions, and to yours. Let’s meet them, then. First, joining us from São Paulo is a former member of the Brazilian Chamber of Deputies representing São Paulo, Mr Marcelo Alves de Marianti.

Alves de Marianti: Hello.

Kügenliche: From Rio Branco we have the director of a cooperative community garden and protest leader, Ms Jacinta Ciara Bamburgo.

Ciara Bamburgo: Good day.

Kügenliche: With us from Brasília is the Brazilian government correspondent for Ka-Ching TV World, Mr Frederic Vina Zonta.

Vina Zonta: Hello Charlotte.

Kügenliche: And joining me here in our Warwickshire studios is the Manuel Adriano Ferreira de Ucazi Tatto professor of Brazilian studies at the University of South Staffingshire, Ms Maya Matta.

Matta: Good evening Charlotte.

Kügenliche: And thank you all for being with us today. We’ll go to you first, Deputy. Well, the government has acquiesced to several of the protesters’ demands, but the demonstrations appear to be just as large as ever today. Do you believe that the actions taken to date are sufficient?

Alves de Marianti: Well, in fact, I believe that the actions taken to date are excessive. What people in Brazil do not realise is that we actually have very strong measures in place to prevent corruption. While it is unfortunate that the arenas being built for the World Cup next year are over budget and behind schedule, we fully expect private contributors to provide supporting funds that will reduce the government’s exposure.

Kügenliche: Well, that’s an interesting perspective. Jacinta, do you believe that there will be private funding for these World Cup stadiums, and if there is, do you believe that it really makes a difference to people around the country?

Ciara Bamburgo: It does not make a difference. This is just another example of the government’s inability to listen to the public. We are not angry about the cost of the stadiums in themselves. We are angry that the use of public funds comes with carte blanche and a complete lack of oversight as to how the funds are being spent. We are demanding answers from the government, not empty promises.

Kügenliche: Right, some harsh words there. Frederic, what have you seen with the protests accelerating these past few days? Are people sympathising with these protests?

Vina Zonta: They certainly are, Charlotte. We’re hearing it from everyone, whether it’s the protesters themselves, or businessmen and women in the city centres, or even farmers in rural areas. Though it’s primarily young people who are themselves involved in the protests, other generations are showing their support as well. We’ve spoken with a number of protesters over the past few days who have told us that their parents have encouraged them to take part, that the parents are proud that their children are participating in demonstrations just as they did in their own youth.

Kügenliche: Well, so it’s not just the youth of Brazil. Professor, is that what we would expect in Brazil?

Matta: Absolutely. Brazil has a long history of public demonstrations, each of which is assigned some sort of name. And this one has become known as the Vinegar Revolt.

Kügenliche: The Vinegar Revolt?

Matta: Yes. In the São Paulo protests early in the month, a number of demonstrators were arrested for carrying vinegar, which can be used to reduce the effects of tear gas and pepper spray.

Kügenliche: So vinegar is a controlled substance in Brazil?

Matta: The police in São Paulo have yet to explain how being in possession of vinegar is a violation of the law.

Kügenliche: I see. Well, it’s time now to turn to questions from you, our viewers. You can, of course, get your questions to us in a number of ways which include telephone, SMS, E-mail, and tweet. We will go first to the telephone lines and Bettina in Fortaleza, CE, Brazil. Bettina, are you there?

Bettina in Fortaleza: Yes, hello.

Kügenliche: Bettina, thank you for phoning in. What is your question?

Bettina in Fortaleza: I have been watching many of these protests take place throughout my country, and I am pleased that Brazilians are coming together for a reason other than football. However, I am concerned at some of the violence that is occurring, and the possibility that it may affect the World Cup. What is the possibility that the World Cup will be moved to a different country?

Kügenliche: Well, an important question there. Brazil have already spent thirty billion reals on the stadiums alone, and some of them are still not yet complete. Deputy, are you aware of any contingency plans to move the World Cup?

Alves de Marianti: There are no contingency plans. FIFA’s plans have always been to hold this World Cup in Brazil.

Kügenliche: But surely, Deputy, it is unprecedented to have protests on this scale so close to a major football tournament.

Alves de Marianti: It is also unprecedented for a World Cup to be such a dramatic success.

Kügenliche: Well, I will certainly agree with you as to dramatic. But are you really prepared to state that the 2014 World Cup will be a success?

Alves de Marianti: Yes, definitely. This will be the greatest World Cup yet.

Ciara Bamburgo: This... this is nothing more than fantasy. You are merely looking at the world through rose coloured glasses, just as everyone in the government is. Brazil has serious problems that the government is failing to address, and these protests will continue until meaningful steps are taken to battle the cronyism and corruption that run rampant throughout our country. If it means missing the opportunity to hold the World Cup here, then so be it.

Kügenliche: Frederic, is that view shared by the general public? Football, after all, is the one true love of the Brazilian people. If there is a possibility of losing the hosting rights to the World Cup, will that not prompt a backlash against these protests?

Vina Zonta: Well, a couple of years ago, I would have said that no one would ever protest during the World Cup or the Confederations Cup. But people see so much money going into these stadiums, some of which are still not yet complete, or if they are, no one knows how safe they really are. The arena in Salvador has recently had part of its roof collapse. This was due to a poor design that allows rain to collect on the roof without draining off. So it is not just that the stadiums are being built, essentially for one purpose. It is that they are being built poorly, and that they are costing so much more because graft is siphoning off much of that money.

Matta: Well, football is certainly important to Brazilians, but I would agree with you. In recent years, the Brazilian populace seem to have come to the realisation that in modern society, its place is less important than quality education and health care, affordable transportation, and good governance.

Kügenliche: The spell is broken, then.

Matta: It is.

Ciara Bamburgo: Well, in fact, I would disagree that Brazilians were ever under a spell to begin with. Certainly, Brazilians love their football. But protesting and rebellion have always been part of Brazilian life. Why, I have a girlfriend whose parents participated in the protests of the 1970s against the military dictatorship. Everyone speaks about the popularity of the military government because of Brazil’s economic success, but the protests then, and those now, show that economic booms benefit only those who are already rich. They do nothing for the poor.

Kügenliche: Well, it’s interesting that you mention that, Jacinta. One of the issues that is being protested against currently, and that we have not yet discussed today, is the taxation levels. It is estimated that the average Brazilian pays upwards of 40% of their income in taxes, and yet there is great disillusionment at what they are getting for their money.

Vina Zonta: Yes, and that is why the Confederations Cup is being used as a target of these protests. We saw one protest banner in Rio de Janeiro the other day that read, “We want hospitals and schools to FIFA standards”. The fact that the government is spending so much money on football stadiums is, in and of itself, not at issue. The demonstrators believe that football stadiums should be much lower on the government’s list of priorities.

Kügenliche: All right. Well, we have had a very good discussion, and it has used up nearly all of our time this evening. We have time, in fact, for just one more question that we received on Twitter earlier today. At sign SuperRiceMeister asks, “What is the best protest banner so far?” Well, let’s ask our panellists. What was your favourite banner, Deputy?

Alves de Marianti: I do not know. I have not looked at the signs.

Ciara Bamburgo: I saw a sign that simply read: “World Cup, 33 billion reals. Olympics, 26 billion reals. Corruption, 50 billion reals. Minimum salary, 678 reals. Do you still believe this is about 20 cents?”

Vina Zonta: There was a banner that read: “Do not shoot us. Listen to us.”

Matta: Two stood out to me. First, “We are helpless without education, health, or transportation”. Then, “Liberté. Egalité. Fraternité. Vinagré.”

Kügenliche: Well, with that, we must wrap things up for this week’s edition of Interaction. Thank you all for tuning us in, and to our panellists, Mr Marcelo Alves de Marianti, Ms Jacinta Ciara Bamburgo, Mr Frederic Vina Zonta, and Ms Maya Matta, for being with us today. Next time we will discuss opera and whether it is really still relevant in modern society. We will be joined by several prominent opera singers and writers, as well as contributors in the area that is overtaking opera in terms of popularity, which is Funny or Die. That’s all next week on Interaction, but for now, so long from Warwickshire.

Matta: I meant to ask. Has anyone ever protested this programme?

Kügenliche: Yes, on occasion. The most frequent protest sign is: “No Sitting! Britons Against Chairs on Television”.